Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Offences committed outside Victoria
stormcentre
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Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby stormcentre » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:16 pm

-- Unlicenced Car On Private Property With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant --

Hi there,

Really love this site/forum.

Recently the police arrived at the house where I stay without a warrant and let themselves in, even though they *said they had no warrant, I was *not under arrest, and I *advised them I was not happy with their entry.

When they first arrived I was out the back of the property, so I only saw them once one police officer had jumped the fence and let himself in; and it was then that I had the aforementioned *discussion with him.

The entire property is locked at the front gates and they had no search warrant; so expressed my disapproval at the police officer letting himself in.

Apparently my ex-partner (whom both, has threatened me {via SMS} with this very matter and I currently have a custody battle with) had notified them that the car in the garage had expired plates on it; but the police said they were at the premises because they received an anonymous call for someone driving and unlicensed vehicle.

The officers didn’t believe that I never drove the vehicle, and (rather than providing a warning and even though the vehicle was not on a public road) wrote me an infringement for $320 and took the (interstate) plates.

When I advised them that the vehicle was not on the road - not driven - and that they entered the property without a warrant and/or my consent; the officer advised me that he had the right to enter the property without a warrant because he was investigating a traffic infringement.

I am not sure whether a parked vehicle on private property with the wrong number plates on it is a traffic infringement that meets the test for an officer entering the premises without a warrant; and I am aware that (investigating) a traffic infringement may possibly be grounds for the police to enter without a warrant.


I would like to know;

a) If the police have the right to access the locked property without a warrant, for the purposes of the above-mentioned anonymous complaint (about someone supposedly driving an unlicensed car, when it turned out to be) related to a parked vehicle with the wrong number plates on it.

b) The above-mentioned scenario (parked car on private property and no search warrant and/or agreed access) meets the criteria for both, an officer entering the premises without a warrant and a traffic infringement.

c) If, in the case the police have lawfully/rightfully acted, I am liable for the infringement if the car does not belong to me.

d) If, in the case the police have lawfully/rightfully acted, what other possible defence may be available to me; regardless of car ownership.



Kind regards.

SC.

Hardy
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby Hardy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 pm

All you need to do is take it to court.
Assuming their evidence in court will be exactly as you describe (fat chance!) then you have nothing to worry about - although it is possible they will call a witness (think ex-wife) to give evidence that they saw you driving the car with false plates on. The lack of a warrant has nothing to do with it. Their case would be equally as hopeless if they had a warrant. They need evidence that you used the vehicle in a public place with the wrong plates on.

stormcentre
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby stormcentre » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:42 pm

Thanks for your prompt response, really appreciate it.

But can you please be a bit more specific about the “A” - “D” questions I had.

Particularly the first 2; as they will form the basis of any defence I mount.

Ex-partner has cleaned me right out (you, as a lawyer know how it works), so I will probably need to defend myself.

In am in QLD.

Kind regards,

SC.

stormcentre
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby stormcentre » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:50 pm

Oh, I just re-read your post. It didn’t all show up at first on my phone.

I see you answered more of my enquiry than I first thought.

Sorry.

So, you're saying; their case would be hopeless even if they had a warrant, because they need evidence that I used the vehicle in a public place with the wrong plates on.

But, are you also saying that; the police DO NOT have the right to access the locked property without a warrant, for the purposes of the above-mentioned anonymous complaint (about someone supposedly driving an unlicensed car, when it turned out to be) related to a parked vehicle with the wrong number plates on it.

And, are you also saying that; the above-mentioned scenario (parked car on private property and no search warrant and/or agreed access) DOES NOT meets the criteria for both, an officer entering the premises without a warrant and a traffic infringement.
Cheers,

SC.

Hardy
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby Hardy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:19 am

You are trying to work out a defence to a charge that has not even been laid yet. That is pointless.
Get back in touch when you know what the alleged offence is.

stormcentre
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby stormcentre » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:56 pm

Hi Sean,

In my first post I wrote . . . “The officers didn’t believe that I never drove the vehicle, and (rather than providing a warning and even though the vehicle was not on a public road) wrote me an infringement for $320 and took the (interstate) plates”

So, to some extent I have been charged haven’t I? As, I have an infringement notice for “using a plate issued to another vehicle” that carries a fine of $302.00.

I can either pay the fine and have that on my record (prefer not to if I can), or I can go to court and defend the matter on the grounds stated in your earlier post.

If I go to court, can I apply to see what evidence they have beforehand? I mean, I appreciate that it’s only an infringement, but I thought that - in QLD - if you're charged with an offence, you can ask police prosecutions for a copy of the Queensland Police form 9 (QP9) which is a written summary of the police version of why you were charged and what happened. Wouldn’t that assist with any defence? As, then I would know what their called evidence in court might be.

So, I can either pay the fine and have that on my record (prefer not to if I can), or I can go to court and defend the matter on the grounds stated in your earlier post. Is that right?

Also, why must I notify the police within 28 days of I wish to take it to court? Why can't I take it to court anytime given (you have stated that) they have no grounds to issue the infringement.

Thanks again for your time.

Hardy
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby Hardy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:50 pm

In Victoria you have about 10 weeks to decide whether to take it to court. Not sure what the deadline is in Qld. If you take it to court, you then get a charge and summons - at least in Victoria you would. That will state the offence on it. When you have that, let us know.
I thought that - in QLD - if you're charged with an offence, you can ask police prosecutions for a copy of the Queensland Police form 9 (QP9) which is a written summary of the police version of why you were charged and what happened. Wouldn’t that assist with any defence?

That's my point...when you are charged you will know what you are charged with and what is alleged against you. I never ever ever try to work out how to defend a case without first seeing the case. If the police didn't give you any idea of how it is alleged that you used the car with wrong plates on it, then maybe they have no evidence of that - or are going to claim you admitted to using it.

I have no idea what laws exist in Qld to allow police to enter private property without a warrant. I would be surprised if it allowed them to do that simply to investigate an alleged traffic offence. You might want to know if the offence they allege accrues demerit points.
I'll move this thread to the Interstate forum.

stormcentre
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby stormcentre » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:08 am

Thanks for that Sean.

I am trying to decide as soon as possible whether I take it to court or not. Given that I have family law matters going on as well there really is not much time for me to plan and that’s why I am doing all this before I got to court and/or am charged (I actually thought I was charged).

So, given that I have no DL and all the other factors . . if I pay the infringement (without going to court) will I then have that recorded against my name? Clearly it can't go against my DL.

If I decide to go to court does my above-mentioned comments about asking police prosecutions for a copy of the Queensland Police form 9 (QP9) of why you were charged and what happened, assist with any defence?

Kind regards.

Hardy
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby Hardy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:52 pm

I am trying to decide as soon as possible whether I take it to court or not.

I addressed that in the first sentence of my first post.

If I decide to go to court does my above-mentioned comments about asking police prosecutions for a copy of the Queensland Police form 9 (QP9) of why you were charged and what happened, assist with any defence?


I prefer to ask the police for nothing at all. The time for contemplating asking the police for information is after you have found that the information they have provided leaves you incapable to preparing a proper defence. That would be very rare. If you are saying you have no idea what caused the police to turn up, nor what evidence they have that you used the car with incorrect plates then just wait for all of that to come in the mail with the charges.

stormcentre
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby stormcentre » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:40 pm

Hardy wrote:a) I prefer to ask the police for nothing at all. The time for contemplating asking the police for information is after you have found that the information they have provided leaves you incapable to preparing a proper defence. That would be very rare.

b) If you are saying you have no idea what caused the police to turn up, nor what evidence they have that you used the car with incorrect plates then

c) just wait for all of that to come in the mail with the charges.


Thanks for your response Sean.

OK, and waiting for “all that to come in the mail with charges” as per your comments (c) happens by simply not paying the infringement; is that right?

I think I am getting a bit confused about the difference between an infringement and charges, and what processes apply top both.

Then, after waiting for “all that to come in the mail with charges” as per your comments (c); presumably, I receive notice by mail that I have not paid the infringement, and from that point I then elect to take the matter to court and (possibly) claim as per point (b)?

Have I got that right?

Kind regards.

Hardy
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby Hardy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:56 pm

See http://trafficlaw.com.au/fines.html#object

A similar process exists in Qld.

stormcentre
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby stormcentre » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:17 pm

OK, read all that. Thanks for the link.

So, as far as strategy goes and getting back to (your and) my previous post . . . .

Do I;

A) Simply not pay the infringement and then wait for “all that to come in the mail with charges” as per your comments.

B) Or, advise the police within the given timeframe that I wish to defend the matter.

Even though I read the link I am still not sure which of the 2 above options fits best with the strategy you may normally prescribe for a circumstance like this.

Kind regards.

LEO
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby LEO » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:26 pm

B)Or, advise the police within the given timeframe that I wish to defend the matter.

Then wait for the charges to arrive if they do.

Hardy
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Re: Unlicenced Car With Wrong Plates; Police Access W/O Warrant

Postby Hardy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:46 pm

Read your infringement notice and follow the steps for taking the case to court.
Where on earth did you get the idea that doing nothing was a sensible option? I guess it is possible that Qld has a process of taking to court everyone who doesn't pay an infringement notice, but I doubt they have enough court houses to deal with such a case load. As I understand it, in Qld the only way you can get charges is to follow the procedures for taking the case to court. If you want to pay me a conference fee I'll find out how you dispute an infringement offence in court in Qld.


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