Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Offences committed outside Victoria
CameraShy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Perth

Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby CameraShy » Sat May 20, 2017 6:16 am

Hi Sean, Glad to see the forum is still up and running :D
This thread is basically carrying on from our previous discussion in this thread
http://www.trafficlaw.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1975

I've noticed some interesting things lately here in WA, concerning roadside advisory signs. The first time I saw them was about a month ago, south bound on Alexander Drive, just north of the Terry Tyzack Aquatic Centre or thereabouts, signs that were warning of a speed camera ahead, both on the median strip in the middle of the road [dual carriageway in both directions] and on the left verge, not just one at each location, but a few of them. Traffic travelling in either lane could not possibly miss them!

Sure enough, 50 or so metres further on, there was the camera! I was shocked at what I had just seen :shock: I continued my journey, somewhat bewildered by what I had just witnessed and thinking that someone was just having fun at the expense of the WA Police. But I thought 'No way! If this is just a practical joke someone is playing, then they have gone to an enormous amount of trouble to have these signs made up - precision curve bent round Ali tubing with a plasticized canvas attached to the frame with the image and words silk screened onto the canvas.

Only the Revenue Raiser Resistance would go to this much trouble, but these signs don't look like any of the signs they've made up.

Then yesterday [19/5/17], north bound on Alexander Drive, there they were again, the exact same signs on both sides of a dual carriageway, warning of a speed camera ahead. I turned off at the next road so I could recirculate back around and drive past the signs and camera again, but this time with my movie camera rolling.
It was a good decision I made to get this on digital straight away, because the operator was already in the process of packing up when I drove past the second time.
Here's the youtube video, a bit rushed, no time to muck around, but good enough to get an idea of what I'm talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEeB_-qBXgc

Early hours here, I must sleep. will post more later.

allde
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby allde » Sat May 20, 2017 11:28 am

Hmmmmm, defeats the purpose, I can imagine them next having signs, "If your drunk turn off, Booze Bus Ahead".
:lol:

Day
Posts: 1604
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Day » Sat May 20, 2017 2:21 pm

allde wrote:Hmmmmm, defeats the purpose, I can imagine them next having signs, "If your drunk turn off, Booze Bus Ahead".
:lol:

:lol: :lol:

CameraShy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby CameraShy » Sat May 20, 2017 4:28 pm

allde wrote:Hmmmmm, defeats the purpose, I can imagine them next having signs, "If your drunk turn off, Booze Bus Ahead".
:lol:

Haha :D , but one could argue back as per my last thread "Defeats what purpose, the purpose to get people to slow down or the purpose to catch people speeding"

Karl O’Callaghan's [WA's top cop] attitude towards warning signs and even flashing headlights is commendable, hat's off to you Karl!
Below is a quote from Perth Now [Sunday Times]

Police Commissioner Karl O’Callaghan said it was not illegal to warn people about speed cameras as long as they did not obstruct traffic.
“I don’t mind if people bring attention to speed cameras, that’s good,” the commissioner said.
“If it helps people slow down so much the better.”

The source of the above quote is here
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/masked-protesters-warn-drivers-of-upcoming-speed-cameras-in-protest-of-wa-government-revenue-raising/news-story/b37f6b59e48ad9db8d413646e6287fc0

And again, some time ago I was driving north along Great Northern Hwy and I was a few K's over the speed limit, a police car coming the opposite way just gave me a prompt by switching his lights on momentarily and kept on driving. Hat's off to that officer, that's all I needed to draw my attention to my speed.
Yet again, some time ago now, I was pulled over by a police car in Perth whilst driving my VL Calais RB30ET [It's an LE by HDT]
I was a few K's over the limit, and the officer simply said 'I see that this car has a turbo charged engine, turbo's can get away from you if your not careful'
I replied 'Your not wrong, I don't normally drive this car, my usual driver has a naturally aspirated engine'
With that he said 'No problem, keep an eye on this thing when your driving it' and left. Hat's off to that officer.

Yet again [the last one - promise] I bought the HDT from someone is Batemans Bay NSW [just south of Sydney] I had flown there with the intention of driving it back to Perth via Melbourne [got some mates in Melb].
From Batemans Bay, I drove to Canberra to meet up with the Hume Hwy, then headed south to Melbourne along Hume Hwy.
I noticed that every so often, there was a steel archway across the Hwy with speed displays mounted on it, one for each lane.
These displays seemed to be just measuring my vehicles speed and displaying it to me.
I thought 'Brilliant NSW, what a great way to prompt drivers to check their speed' and you could use them to check the accuracy of your speedo!

Anyway, enough ranting from me for a bit, got more things to do, can't be kicking tyres here all day! :D
Cheers

Gravy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:25 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Gravy » Mon May 22, 2017 4:22 pm

CameraShy wrote:Haha , but one could argue back as per my last thread "Defeats what purpose, the purpose to get people to slow down or the purpose to catch people speeding"

The aim should be to slow drivers down across the entire road network, not just at the speed camera locations. The flaw in advertising where the cameras are is that speeders will only slow down when they see a sign and just carry on speeding everywhere else since they know they won't get sprung by a camera.

The Victorian model is to make drivers believe that they can be caught anywhere, without warning. This gets them to slow down whenever they pass a new car parked on the side of the road, whether or not it is a speed camera (since you can only tell once you're passed it, by which time it's too late).

If both models had the same number of mobile cameras, which do you think deters speeding across a larger area/more roads?

Personally, I hate when drivers warn others of speed cameras (with headlights, etc). If some goose is putting other road users at risk by speeding, they deserve to be caught and pay the price.

CameraShy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby CameraShy » Wed May 24, 2017 7:58 pm

Hi Gravy, sorry for slow response.
I agree with you about headlight flashing, I rarely do it if ever. If someone is obviously hooning, may the law nail your butt to the road and throw the book at you!!
But as per my last thread, most drivers are not wilful law breakers, they have no intention to knowingly break the speed limit.
For that group of drivers [the overwhelming majority], all the deterrents in the world, do nothing. Deterrents only work on hooners - wilful lawbreakers.

Gravy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:25 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Gravy » Thu May 25, 2017 3:14 pm

CameraShy wrote:most drivers are not wilful law breakers, they have no intention to knowingly break the speed limit.
For that group of drivers [the overwhelming majority], all the deterrents in the world, do nothing. Deterrents only work on hooners - wilful lawbreakers.

Your premise is true (that most speeding is unintentional), though I disagree with the conclusion you draw from it.

If drivers are inadvertently low-level speeding, it is because they are not paying sufficient attention to their speed. By bringing them to the belief that low-level speeding is highly likely to attract a fine in virtually any location, they either generally slow down and pay the same attention (thereby reducing the risk), or pay more attention and slow down. The fear of paying a fine is a very powerful motivator to affect behavioral change and this is particularly so for this category of driver. There are other factors we use to combat inattentive speeding, in particular better road design, however that is obviously prohibitively expensive to retrofit across the entire road network.

Hoons, or willful lawbreakers (good call), either understand the deterrents and don't care (risk < reward) or understand the deterrents and believe they won't be caught (don't fully understand the risk). There's a lot of research to demonstrate that at the typical hoon age of 18 - 25, males (in particular) have not fully developed the part of the brain that is responsible for risk management. It's a really difficult nut to crack from a road safety perspective, because the target audience isn't really physiologically capable of heeding the risk (either physical risk or punitive risk) message.

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8472
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Hardy » Thu May 25, 2017 5:54 pm

most drivers are not wilful law breakers, they have no intention to knowingly break the speed limit.
For that group of drivers [the overwhelming majority], all the deterrents in the world, do nothing. Deterrents only work on hooners - wilful lawbreakers.

The reason most drivers do not intend to break the speed limit is because the deterrents exist. Imagine what it would be like if the deterrents were not there!
Do you apply the same rational to drink driving offences? Pretty much all traffic laws, especially the drink driving laws, are built around the general deterrence prism. Extremely few traffic offences have a "willingness" element in them. You can be found guilty of almost every offence in the Road Safety Act and the Road Rules without having any intention to commit the offence. Deterrents don't actually work to stop people who intend to break the law by hooning because these people have already assumed they are not going to get caught, so they have given no consideration to a penalty that they think is never going to come. Deterrents work to reduce the offending rate for about 98% of people, but there is always about 2% who don't give a shit no matter what the penalty is. So perhaps a better view is that general deterrents don't work for hoons but they do work for people who need to be reminded to pay more attention.

CameraShy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby CameraShy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:41 pm

Hi Sean, was wondering when you might drop in to say Hi. Good to see that you and your wonderful forum are still here :D
I'll have to send you another donation!
Sorry to all for my non-attendance here, the nightmares I've had to endure lately [nothing to do with the law] have had me close to being a Graylands case [local asylum]
Don't even have time right now to respond, just got my head above water, still gasping for air.
Will be back soon.
Cheers

kbreen
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 12:33 pm

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby kbreen » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:51 pm

Gravy wrote: There's a lot of research to demonstrate that at the typical hoon age of 18 - 25, males (in particular) have not fully developed the part of the brain that is responsible for risk management. It's a really difficult nut to crack from a road safety perspective, because the target audience isn't really physiologically capable of heeding the risk (either physical risk or punitive risk) message.

Has a bit to do with the norms of the society in which they live, too!

stroppy
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:57 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby stroppy » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:40 am

A lot of talk here about whether warning people about a camera location is better than no warning at all...etc... Personally I think the way they do things in the UK and NSW is better than the Victorian system for one important reason. Our clandestine mobile cameras mean that you will not get a fine until some weeks after the alleged infringement. So, in the case of a hoon driver, they will continue to drive for that four weeks without a thought for their actions. If they had been pulled over by the traffic branch or had warning of a camera as in NSW their driving style is modified ON THE SPOT and not moderated some weeks later.

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8472
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Hardy » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:58 am

Not sure where you get that idea from - hoons aren't interested in modifying their driving - they treat speeding and getting away with it as their primary hobby. If the sign was enough to modify people's behaviour, then the govt could see heaps by just putting up signs and dispensing with the cameras. Hoons love those signs that warn them that a speed camera is coming up. They love navigators that remind them where the fixed speed cameras are. What they fear most are mobile speed cameras and unmarked HWP cars. A hoon driver doesn't stop being a hoon driver just because he passes a speed camera warning sign. I'm pretty sure NSW still has plenty of hoons even though they drive past speed camera warning signs all the time. I get plenty of NSW hoon clients who come unstuck when they cross into Victoria but can't seem to change their habit of only ever slowing down to the speed limit when they see a camera warning sign. Anyway, in Victoria we do have speed camera warning signs:
[ img ]

stroppy
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:57 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby stroppy » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:32 pm

Hardy wrote:Not sure where you get that idea from - hoons aren't interested in modifying their driving - they treat speeding and getting away with it as their primary hobby. If the sign was enough to modify people's behaviour, then the govt could see heaps by just putting up signs and dispensing with the cameras. Hoons love those signs that warn them that a speed camera is coming up. They love navigators that remind them where the fixed speed cameras are. What they fear most are mobile speed cameras and unmarked HWP cars. A hoon driver doesn't stop being a hoon driver just because he passes a speed camera warning sign. I'm pretty sure NSW still has plenty of hoons even though they drive past speed camera warning signs all the time. I get plenty of NSW hoon clients who come unstuck when they cross into Victoria but can't seem to change their habit of only ever slowing down to the speed limit when they see a camera warning sign. Anyway, in Victoria we do have speed camera warning signs:
[ img ]


The signs are few and far between and you are making a really long stretch of the bow by comparing our signage to that used in NSW wherein mobile speed camera vehicles are clearly marked (not clandestine) and portable signs warn of the presence of the camera vehicle. This has a good effect on all drivers as it modifies their behaviour instantly. You are right...many hoons will hoon despite cameras being present. That operates in ALL states, signs or not. Catch my drift? I'm talking about modifying the behaviour of 98% of usually law-abiding motorists BEFORE they get pinged rather than after...not the 2% for whom modified vehicles are a form of mad escapism.

If your argument is the right one then, pray tell why is it that NSW and (I think) WA went with the portable signage/marked vehicle concept? Why do the police in the UK do the same thing? Are they all mad and in error?

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8472
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Hardy » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:20 pm

The signs are few and far between


Why does that matter? Everyone still drives past one before they reach the fixed speed cameras. What you seem to be saying is that very motorist who sees a warning sign will comply with the speed limit only momentarily and soon after they will start speeding again, and by the time they reach a camera they may have forgotten that they need to comply with the speed limit. What if we put those signs up every 650m to ensure drivers remember to comply with the speed limit during the entire length of their journey? Would that help?

Are they all mad and in error?

It is a political decision, not a road safety initiative. If the voters complain loudly enough politicians will do anything to ensure they are re-elected. Unfortunately not many politicians in Victoria are running on the platform of making life easier for speeding motorists.

Gravy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:25 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Gravy » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:49 pm

stroppy wrote:mobile speed camera vehicles are clearly marked (not clandestine) and portable signs warn of the presence of the camera vehicle. This has a good effect on all drivers as it modifies their behaviour instantly.
Yeah, then their behaviour instantly changes back once they're out of range of the camera and until they see another sign. If a driver knows they will not be pinged for speeding unless they see a sign, they just look for signs and respond accordingly. If a drivers knows they can get pinged anywhere and without any warning, they won't look for a sign and will drive accordingly.

How is that speed cameras work to reduce speeding at any location other that immediately surrounding a sign advertising its presence? I'm sure you're aware that advertising the location of speed cameras has the side effect of advertising where they are not. What stops a person from speeding in a location that is effectively advertised as free of enforcement?

stroppy
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:57 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby stroppy » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:51 pm

Gravy wrote:
stroppy wrote:mobile speed camera vehicles are clearly marked (not clandestine) and portable signs warn of the presence of the camera vehicle. This has a good effect on all drivers as it modifies their behaviour instantly.
Yeah, then their behaviour instantly changes back once they're out of range of the camera and until they see another sign. If a driver knows they will not be pinged for speeding unless they see a sign, they just look for signs and respond accordingly. If a drivers knows they can get pinged anywhere and without any warning, they won't look for a sign and will drive accordingly.

How is that speed cameras work to reduce speeding at any location other that immediately surrounding a sign advertising its presence? I'm sure you're aware that advertising the location of speed cameras has the side effect of advertising where they are not. What stops a person from speeding in a location that is effectively advertised as free of enforcement?


You are making assumptions about driver behaviour as much as I am. The FACT is that NSW, WA and the UK (and, I believe, Ireland and Eire) take the position I have, whereas Victoria follows the position you do. Each could be argued to the nth degree and unless there are extensive studies done I don't think you can say one way is better than the other...just make suppositions as you have. Personally I think that the way NSW does it is the right way.

stroppy
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:57 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby stroppy » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:38 pm

CameraShy wrote:Hi Gravy, sorry for slow response.
I agree with you about headlight flashing, I rarely do it if ever. If someone is obviously hooning, may the law nail your butt to the road and throw the book at you!!
But as per my last thread, most drivers are not wilful law breakers, they have no intention to knowingly break the speed limit.
For that group of drivers [the overwhelming majority], all the deterrents in the world, do nothing. Deterrents only work on hooners - wilful lawbreakers.


I remember reading that warning others of the presence of a camera by briefly flashing your high bean is no longer an offence in Victoria (if it ever was one) and I also remember reading that one of our top cops said it was fine by him.

If I see a camera on the side of the road I will flash my lights at oncoming cars if they appear to be driving safely. If they are flying towards me I don't.

Chef
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:04 pm

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby Chef » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:02 am

stroppy wrote:
CameraShy wrote:Hi Gravy, sorry for slow response.
I agree with you about headlight flashing, I rarely do it if ever. If someone is obviously hooning, may the law nail your butt to the road and throw the book at you!!
But as per my last thread, most drivers are not wilful law breakers, they have no intention to knowingly break the speed limit.
For that group of drivers [the overwhelming majority], all the deterrents in the world, do nothing. Deterrents only work on hooners - wilful lawbreakers.


I remember reading that warning others of the presence of a camera by briefly flashing your high bean is no longer an offence in Victoria (if it ever was one) and I also remember reading that one of our top cops said it was fine by him.

If I see a camera on the side of the road I will flash my lights at oncoming cars if they appear to be driving safely. If they are flying towards me I don't.


And therefore commit an offence of using your high beams at another vehicle. It's not an offence to flash and warn, just can't be your high beams.

stroppy
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:57 am

Re: Speed trap advisory signs in WA

Postby stroppy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:20 pm

Chef wrote:
stroppy wrote:
CameraShy wrote:Hi Gravy, sorry for slow response.
I agree with you about headlight flashing, I rarely do it if ever. If someone is obviously hooning, may the law nail your butt to the road and throw the book at you!!
But as per my last thread, most drivers are not wilful law breakers, they have no intention to knowingly break the speed limit.
For that group of drivers [the overwhelming majority], all the deterrents in the world, do nothing. Deterrents only work on hooners - wilful lawbreakers.


I remember reading that warning others of the presence of a camera by briefly flashing your high bean is no longer an offence in Victoria (if it ever was one) and I also remember reading that one of our top cops said it was fine by him.

If I see a camera on the side of the road I will flash my lights at oncoming cars if they appear to be driving safely. If they are flying towards me I don't.


And therefore commit an offence of using your high beams at another vehicle. It's not an offence to flash and warn, just can't be your high beams.


The brief flash does use the high beam section of your headlight assembly. I use the light switch which avoids that problem. At any rate (in the daylight) I think any person would be hard pressed to see the difference in light intensity for that brief moment of light. I shall continue to warn people on the opposite of the road if they appear to be driving at a reasonable speed. If I spot a hoon or a bunch of kids fanging down the road they can suffer their fate. There'll be no warning from me.


Return to “Interstate and foreign driving issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest